Adventures in Democracy - Jericho Conversations with Erica Benner
In case you missed it, we recently interviewed Erica Benner, as part of our Jericho Conversations series.
Erica is a political philosopher and historian of ideas who has taught at Oxford, the LSE, and Yale. Adventures in Democracy is the title of Erica's new book which offers insights into the complexities of democracy and provides guidance on how individuals and communities can contribute to its vitality and resilience. It was one of The Financial Times ‘What to read in 2024’. It received a glowing review from The Guardian: ‘a sparkling page-turner full of wit, original insight and unassuming erudition’.
Jericho partner Matthew Gwyther spoke to Erica about the challenges and threats to democracy, including inequality, networked societies, heroes of democracy, populism and the responsibility of businesses and their role in democratic processes.
Thank you for joining us (if you did), and sorry you missed it (if you didn’t!). It was a great conversation. Below, we’ve captured some of the best bits from the webinar and you can listen to the podcast here:
What outcome, post-berlin wall, would have been better? Could we have prevented Putin?
In countries like Poland, which the Soviet Union had not totally occupied, the West had a chance to do better. Liberal democracy was the way to go, and we thought we could control and define it through financial and political institutions. Most of the country's leaders were content to go along with it to avoid vulnerability to the Soviet Union.
We have these ideologies about what it takes to run good liberal democracies, but we haven’t paid enough attention to what people are experiencing on the ground.
I was in Poland in 1993-1995 and it wasn’t total chaos. There was a relatively organised set of institutions working with the government but there was much concern from the bottom up about people's experiences, especially that oligarchs would be able to take the lead and benefit most from growth. The fear isn’t always about the reality of what’s happening, but often the fact things are moving so fast, and people don’t feel in control and don’t really know who is.
Are Western democracies too self-congratulatory about their systems?
I think we need to have more humility about the democracy we profess in the West. I don’t use “populism” and words such as this because they are such fraught terms. Doing the work to define liberal democracy would be useful, especially in the struggle against illiberalism.
In the UK now complacency keeps cropping up – particularly surrounding the link between democracy and the economy. This has been and will continue to be a big problem.
Have liberal democracies ended up being illiberal and woke?
To be democratic is to recognise you have to share power with those you disagree with and that you do not really trust.
"Democratic freedom is different from a freedom to do whatever you want".
I’ve never experienced it [woke culture] – perhaps because I’m a woman and enjoy moderated discussions. Cases that become notorious are latched onto by the woke and anti-woke brigade. I think it highlights that we have to think about generational differences in the discussion around democracy.
Are young men and women drifting apart politically… are men more anti-democratic? Is it a part of the implications of a more networked society?
In a polarisation situation, of course, gender and sexuality play a huge role. The right is focusing on that and using it to cover up the messes they’re making on the economic front.
There is also an online dimension. There are men's groups using a lot of gender-polarising rhetoric, and that is certainly playing a part, but I don’t think gender-based political polarisation is an innately natural thing.
As with all technology throughout history, it goes both ways. We can focus on the negative sides, silos and bubbles, which are feeding each other’s prejudices, but we have to look on the bright side. I am always encouraging talking across the aisles for common interests. Climate is a big issue that has much potential to save democracy as a cause we will all have to rally around.
Do we need more heroes of democracy? Where have things gone wrong?
I’m, by nature, suspicious of heroism on a grand scale. We won’t save democracy with a few grand slogans. I look beyond the myths and ideologies because I don’t trust them. Growing up in the Cold War in Japan you become suspicious. We need heroes on the ground, making links and talking to each other in ways that can progress world issues.
"We won’t save democracy with a few grand slogans"
I’m struggling to understand what’s gone wrong with democracy. I think a good start would be to get back to basics and find common ground. We have to be a lot more independent-minded. How we remove the evil influences is interesting, but Trump, for example, is part of a pattern that has developed. We need to find other ways to start doing it differently.
In China, people don’t know a lot about the alternatives to autocratic rule and the state-run media perpetuates that Western democracy is a total shambles, which in some ways it is. What they hear constantly is ‘we are safe’. It’s convenient and makes life straightforward for people. Young people also feel they have more freedom than generations before them. Perspective is key.
In the UK, I think the impact of the residual class system is still massive, and it's clearest at the top of governments. I have known people who knew they were going to be in prominent positions in government and they had no knowledge of the real world or any interest in it. I wonder if people think they’ve managed to get it more or less right in the past so it’s okay. I think it’s a residue of a problematic trust in the class system.
Are capitalism and democracy good bedfellows?
I think we haven’t found the right way to do it. We thought we had found the right way to link democracy with a liberal and strong free market, but it hasn’t worked out that simply. If we look back to ancient examples, democracy was a scheme to regulate societal inequalities and balance freedoms between sectors of society.
Populism is a phenomenon that goes back to ancient times and it’s mostly a quick and easy way to manipulate people who are in some sort of discomfort. The question isn’t how clever the manipulators are, nor how stupid those are who fall for it but what is the source of the discomfort?
What is the role of Business in Democracy?
In Britain, we know the current government won't be in power and Labour will win. We don’t know exactly what that is going to look like but it's change.
This is an opportunity for people in business (big and small) to start thinking of themselves as a part of democracy. Businesspeople can have very interesting debates about what they do and what they ask governments to do and the impact they can have will be far greater than grassroots organisations at the moment.
I think regulation needs to be on the agenda much more prominently – on climate, AI, and inequality in the global economy. We need to take a step back from the assumption that businesses would want less regulation on everything. There are good reasons for businesses to take an active role in building the right frameworks for new regulation.
"We have to fix the economic system that gives some people a lot more power than others".
Business should care about democracy but there is an argument that progress can be made more quickly without it. However, without democracy, you will end up with a less intelligent population. Democracy makes people participate in what they’re doing and independent people make better economies and stronger societies.
Democracy is the best we’ve got and we need to get back to what it is: freedom in the context of sharing power.
About #JerichoConversations
Jericho Conversations is one of a number of initiatives that spontaneously emerged during the first COVID lockdown – part of a determination to use moments of crisis to pivot towards a better, fairer, more equitable and sustainable future for all. By popular demand, we have reignited the series to help find surprising and refreshing solutions and insights into a world in constant flux. Each conversation – led by an expert speaker – is designed to keep Jericho communities engaged and thinking about “what comes next?” for business and society.